. >> doesn't wayne lapierre have a point, though? background checks will not prevent a criminal from using guns. >> on that theory, we have laws against murder. people are going to kill people anyways. wayne lapierre and the nra used to support the interests of back rent checks 10 years ago or so. >> what happened? >> i do not actually understand it. they have become more unreasonable, i would say. i do not think we are going to get much of anything now. but this is not going away. >> mean that is right. it is a rather fascinating to watch the dynamic of the nra at this point. david cain, the president, the white-haired man, is sort of the good cop. a longtime conservative leader. a longtime nra board member. he has actually come out for universal background checks. lapierre is the more strident, more bombastic, take no prisoners. this is a losing fight for the nra. if we punish people for making false statements on mortgage applications that some bank is going to be hurt, when it comes down to a gun, this is even more serious. >> ch